Georgia Trail Riders Forum
SHOP TALK => Wrench Day => Topic started by: Nu2Jeeps on August 29, 2019, 02:30:11 PM
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I recently bought my 16' JKU about a month ago, and noticed that i was drifting right. I called the dealership (not a Jeep dealer) and they aligned it. It still wasnt right so i went back and they checked it again.
I still drift right and feel as though i am applying a little pressure to the steering wheel (to the left) as I drive). It honestly feels like there is a slight bit of "play" in the wheel.
I dont have a lift, but i am not sure if there are spacers to level it.
Any thoughts? Caster or pinion issues? but would that be the case without a lift?
Thanks for the insight and help.
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Jk's seem to steer better with a little toe. Could just be that you are running tire pressures at what the factory recommends. Try letting some air out by 5 pounds and see if it steers better?
What tires are on the jeep now? My Nitto Trail Grapplers used to wander a bit.
Lifting and getting bigger tires will make "a little bit of play" seem normal.
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even with only spacers it needs track bars to steer straight
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thanks for the information guys, i really do appreciate it.
I have Nitto Grapler G2 tires, 33"
I will get into a jeep dealership and let them check it out, since it is still under warranty for a few months. Hopefully they will not find something more wrong, and we can fix the toe and talk about track bars.
have a great long weekend of wheeling!
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My 2016 JKU that I drive now is a mall crawler with a lift
and 35's. After I bought it in January I went ahead and
bought lifetime alignment from Tires Plus. Every time I
have the wheels rotated I get them to check and adjust
the alignment if needed. Money well spent..........
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But is it the alignment?
I had it aligned twice in one week and i am still having issues with the drift.
maybe when i get into a jeep place they can assess the situation and get me straight.
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But is it the alignment?
I had it aligned twice in one week and i am still having issues with the drift.
maybe when i get into a jeep place they can assess the situation and get me straight.
I’d recommend finding a good Offroad shop to take a look at it. Dealerships tend to only do things one way and won’t go and farther. With all factory control arms there is no caster adjustment unless you have adjustable ball joints. My Jeep was light on caster from the factory and I was never happy with how it drove stock. As someone mentioned before jks like more toe than normal so that is something you could do in your driveway and take it out for a spin. Just be careful that you don’t go too far and end up toed way in. With a tape measure shoot for about 1/8-3/16” toe in. Do you have the factory steering stabilizer? Some aftermarket hi pressure stabilizers will cause the Jeep to push one direction (I can’t recall which way yours is pushing). If you are looking for trackbars to recenter everything I’ve got a couple of synergy units that are in great shape I’d let go cheap plus I’m in ellijay which is not far at all from jeepfest.
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thanks for all of that information, i really appreciate it!
i will check everything you mentioned when i get home. I havent been under the jeep yet, so i am not sure what exactly is there. I dont think the previous owner did any upgrades under there.
I will let you know about the bars ASAP, even if i dont get them this weekend. Ellijay is a nice day trip into the mountains with the family so i could make that happen.
Thanks so much
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I spent some time Saturday morning with a guy from PSC, at jeepfest. without seeing the jeep and just going off my descriptions he said even a leveling kit may have throw things out of whack. he suggested i look at the down the line view of my tires from front to back and then back to front to see if things shifted during an install.
bottom line after the advice from here and from him, i will need to get this into a jeep shop and let them give it the once over. Sounds to me like some parts may need to be added like some arms, and maybe even a lift and shocks ;) I mean we want to be safe out there right?
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I spent some time Saturday morning with a guy from PSC, at jeepfest. without seeing the jeep and just going off my descriptions he said even a leveling kit may have throw things out of whack. he suggested i look at the down the line view of my tires from front to back and then back to front to see if things shifted during an install.
bottom line after the advice from here and from him, i will need to get this into a jeep shop and let them give it the once over. Sounds to me like some parts may need to be added like some arms, and maybe even a lift and shocks ;) I mean we want to be safe out there right?
3.5 Rock Krawler or Metal Cloak Lift and some 35's will take care of a lot of issues.
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on a 3.5 lift wont i need new CV joints due to the sharper angle?
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on a 3.5 lift wont i need new CV joints due to the sharper angle?
Not immediately. I ran with the stock drive shaft for almost a year before I needed to upgrade it.
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Thanks, I actually contacted Fortec in Marietta, yesterday, to see if they would be able to correct the steering issues with parts added. Hopefully i can get it in soon, this drift bothers me.
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OK, so i have had the lift on for a few days now and tried to do a little alignment myself, simple toe change and steering wheel straightening.
I was not able to get the passenger tire to change position but the left moved some, and i was able to get the steering straight up and down.
I feel, when i am driving, like I am walking on ice with slick bottom shoes. this cannot be normal. please tell me when i get it aligned i will feel more connected to the road! At this moment i am almost second guessing the install of the lift.
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Get it aligned and you will be good to go
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I would suggest paying for the lifetime alignment.....then have checked with each oil change, tire rotation and after a wheeling trip.
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thats a great idea, but i am not sure the shop i took it to has that option.
i am still getting a tiny bit of drift to the right.
They said my ball joints have a little play in them, could this be causing the issue?
maybe a bad tie rod and drag link?
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thats a great idea, but i am not sure the shop i took it to has that option.
i am still getting a tiny bit of drift to the right.
They said my ball joints have a little play in them, could this be causing the issue?
maybe a bad tie rod and drag link?
did you ever install the trac bars?
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I did install a superlift front track bar
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OK, let me start this thread back up in hopes of being better informed from some more experienced folks.
Quick recap, I bought the Jeep in May and have been having a slight drift to the right ever since. I installed a new Superlift front track bar. I had it professionally aligned at a Jeep shop (Fortec). They significantly changed the toe, several degrees from out to in. Felt a little tighter but still slight drift to the right.
Ok, so here we are now, when i look at the tires from the front of the Jeep i notice the passenger tire slightly toed out. The driver is straight forward. I dont know how to explain it better than that. I mean take your hands and point them both straight ahead and then turn the right hand 3 or 4 degrees to the right, and that is what i feel like the tires are doing.
I feel like i am having to make micro/mini adjustments all the time, like there is play in the steering wheel.
the guys at fortec said the ball joints are starting to go, and i should plan to replace with the Teraflex HD ball joints (bc they are adjustable while on the Jeep, and the best on the market).
I feel like if i can get the front tire to point straight most of my issues would be gone. What could be causing that tire to toe out like that?
Bad drag link?
Bad tie rod?
Bad ball joints?
worn out steering stabilizer?
I just feel like i am skating on ice, especially at speed.
Thanks for the thoughts.
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I always had both tires toe' in slightly 1/8" or there abouts, not much. For me, I ran Nitto Trail Grapplers which liked to pull slightly left. We tried several things including adding a Fox Stabilizer and found the OEM was better.
Which tires are you running? not all tires are equal. Does it do the same thing if you rotate the back tires to front? How much air are you running? in my 35's every shop would jack up the air to 38-40 psi made it bouncy and drive like crap. For me 32-34psi was much better. and 12-15psi when wheeling. How many miles on these tires? I find newer tires want to drift more until they settle in. The drift seemed to settle down (or I got used to it) after 5,000 miles or so.
I like Moog and Dyntrac ball joints. I think each shop pushes it own favorite ball joint.
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Did you see a carfax on the Jeep?
On my TJ rock crawler the front axle was slightly
bent/warped and I always thought one tire leaned
a little but it ran straight down the road.
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I always had both tires toe' in slightly 1/8" or there abouts, not much. For me, I ran Nitto Trail Grapplers which liked to pull slightly left. We tried several things including adding a Fox Stabilizer and found the OEM was better.
Which tires are you running? not all tires are equal. Does it do the same thing if you rotate the back tires to front? How much air are you running? in my 35's every shop would jack up the air to 38-40 psi made it bouncy and drive like crap. For me 32-34psi was much better. and 12-15psi when wheeling. How many miles on these tires? I find newer tires want to drift more until they settle in. The drift seemed to settle down (or I got used to it) after 5,000 miles or so.
I like Moog and Dyntrac ball joints. I think each shop pushes it own favorite ball joint.
I am running Nitto Grappler G2s, at 30 psi but was running higher before the shop recommended 30.
before the alignment it looked toed out and after the alignment it still looked that way, very odd to me.
If i adjust the drag link shouldnt it change the positioning of both tires?
the tires are about half used. I dont know how many miles have been put on them but the tread looks to be about half gone, and i did rotate them when i installed the lift.
I did not see a carfax on the jeep, there was something like that online from the dealership and i did not notice any repairs or accidents.
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I always had both tires toe' in slightly 1/8" or there abouts, not much. For me, I ran Nitto Trail Grapplers which liked to pull slightly left. We tried several things including adding a Fox Stabilizer and found the OEM was better.
Which tires are you running? not all tires are equal. Does it do the same thing if you rotate the back tires to front? How much air are you running? in my 35's every shop would jack up the air to 38-40 psi made it bouncy and drive like crap. For me 32-34psi was much better. and 12-15psi when wheeling. How many miles on these tires? I find newer tires want to drift more until they settle in. The drift seemed to settle down (or I got used to it) after 5,000 miles or so.
I like Moog and Dyntrac ball joints. I think each shop pushes it own favorite ball joint.
I am running Nitto Grappler G2s, at 30 psi but was running higher before the shop recommended 30.
before the alignment it looked toed out and after the alignment it still looked that way, very odd to me.
If i adjust the drag link shouldnt it change the positioning of both tires?
the tires are about half used. I dont know how many miles have been put on them but the tread looks to be about half gone, and i did rotate them when i installed the lift.
I did not see a carfax on the jeep, there was something like that online from the dealership and i did not notice any repairs or accidents.
Did the previous owner of the tires say why he was getting rid of them with 1/2 tread left?
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Keith, I didn't put your name to you being Nu2Jeeps lol. It was good meeting you on the trail. I would say that since your tires are half tread I wouldn't do anything until you get new tires. You could be running some Chinese knock-offs or they could have been sitting around for a while and someone swapped them out right before they sold it and kept the good tires, you never know. I would start with new balanced tires and then have the alignment checked. Of course, I'm saying this without having seen the front of your jeep. Try taking a picture and posting it so that we can see what your talking about.
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these tires came on the jeep when i bought it off the lot at Carl Black. I noticed the pull to the right whn i got it home and had it up there the next two days for them to align it. I didnt think they did a good job so they redid it. I installed the new track bar and nothing changed, i installed the new lift and had it aligned at fortec and it was slightly better. It feels worse after the little bit i did at AOP this weekend. I cant imagine that a jeep just feels loose and light as a normal thing.
I saw a video yesterday from Exodus Jeeps about a sector shaft and trackbar brace, and they said the customer had a similar issue, then they showed the customer driving at speed on the highway with no hands on the wheel for a few seconds and it was straight as an arrow.
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Has anyone heard of a sector shaft and trackbar brace, or installed one?
I am still concerned about this passenger tire being toed out. I will try to get a picture of it, and some measurements. But i still dont understand why adjusting the tie rod doesnt pull it in.
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To add to this, i did have alot of play in my JK for years, I always figured driving a Jeep was like this. fighting .. after my hydro assist it was like i got a new steering system. the hydro helped a ton, so based on what this guy said. it seems to make sense. im sure my hydro assist is masking stuff but if its not too much $ it might be worth it. just my .02
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I think when a sector shaft breaks you can't steer anymore. I did a search on JKowners.com and come up with a ton of posts to search through https://www.jkowners.com/forum/search.php?searchid=16440832
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Do you have the print out of the last alignment? I'd be willing to bet your caster is low. Do you have adjustable upper/lower control arms on the front?
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thanks, i will look through those posts ASAP.
I do not have a print out of the last alignment, i will make sure to get one next time. I was told with the 2.5 lift i would not have caster and pinion issues. I do not have adjustable CAs.
I dont want to mask a larger (possible) issue but i do like the price of the part in the video.
In a different video this guy has a redneck ram put into his JT and said that the larger tires and 6 inch lift and new axles were causing steering issues, but the RRR cured that. I dont have all of those mods so i was hopeful i wouldnt need to go that route.
Thanks again for the assistance
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Did you replace any controls arms with your lift?
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no CA replacement. i got the 2.5 bc i was told i would not need to change the geometry.
i will get some pics and measurements on the tires and hopefully that will help.
i appreciate all of the thought you guys are giving this. You guys know more than I do so it is helping me think through a lot.
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an easy thing to is maybe rotate the tires and see if that makes a difference. If it doesn't at least you rule the tires out.
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no CA replacement. i got the 2.5 bc i was told i would not need to change the geometry.
i will get some pics and measurements on the tires and hopefully that will help.
i appreciate all of the thought you guys are giving this. You guys know more than I do so it is helping me think through a lot.
With a 2.5 there shouldn't be any geometry change but some adjustment may be needed, as you are experiencing.
You will need a Front Drive shaft eventually. The boot will tear on the stock one. You can normally cut it off after it tears and then get it replaced with an Adams or Tom Woods DS.
-ps your mailbox is full.
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no CA replacement. i got the 2.5 bc i was told i would not need to change the geometry.
i will get some pics and measurements on the tires and hopefully that will help.
i appreciate all of the thought you guys are giving this. You guys know more than I do so it is helping me think through a lot.
With a 2.5 there shouldn't be any geometry change but some adjustment may be needed, as you are experiencing.
You will need a Front Drive shaft eventually. The boot will tear on the stock one. You can normally cut it off after it tears and then get it replaced with an Adams or Tom Woods DS.
-ps your mailbox is full.
Why wouldnt there be any geometry change? There will always be a change in geometry with any kind of lift. If his jeep was light on caster from the factory a 2.5" lift may just be enough to warrant a set of arms. Back in the day i put a leveling kit on my jeep and it drove like crap. A set of upper control arms allowed me to dial the caster in which is probably what the op needs.
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no CA replacement. i got the 2.5 bc i was told i would not need to change the geometry.
i will get some pics and measurements on the tires and hopefully that will help.
i appreciate all of the thought you guys are giving this. You guys know more than I do so it is helping me think through a lot.
With a 2.5 there shouldn't be any geometry change but some adjustment may be needed, as you are experiencing.
You will need a Front Drive shaft eventually. The boot will tear on the stock one. You can normally cut it off after it tears and then get it replaced with an Adams or Tom Woods DS.
-ps your mailbox is full.
Why wouldnt there be any geometry change? There will always be a change in geometry with any kind of lift. If his jeep was light on caster from the factory a 2.5" lift may just be enough to warrant a set of arms. Back in the day i put a leveling kit on my jeep and it drove like crap. A set of upper control arms allowed me to dial the caster in which is probably what the op needs.
Absolutely need to compensate and make adjustments for ANY lift or change in suspension. As I said to begin with, it will need both track bars and an alignment shop that knows what they are doing, at minimum.
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I will certainly look into CAs and asked a lot of questions and looked into purchasing some with the lift.
The jeep is not driving any better now than it did when i bought it, and it had no lift just 33s.
the toed out tire was an issue previously.
Let me get some pics up and see what you guys think after viewing it
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I'll be the odd duck and say it's not a castor issue only because castor usually affects road manners and castor has minimal effect on toe. You can't tell what the castor angle is by looking at the tires, you have to measure the upper and lower ball joint against a vertcal straight line or by the pinion angle if it was off enough.
I bet Allsouth can fix it.
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We'd be happy to check it out for you on the house if you want to bring it by Mon-Fri during business hours, and I'd say before 4PM so we have some time with it. We are about a week out on the schedule, but I know it is a bit of a trek for you so if it is a quick fix we can try and take care if it that day, if not we can schedule to fix it at a later date or let you know what you need to do to take care of it.
Give me call if you want to talk about it.
Adam - 770-881-8173
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Adam, thanks so much for the offer. I might be able to get over there early next week.
I will call you and we can discuss.
I appreciate the offer and help
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(https://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll127/nu2trout/Mobile%20Uploads/FD2FACF5-89A3-45E9-841C-C1DE18DD878F_zpstuzdhb2y.jpeg) (http://s287.photobucket.com/user/nu2trout/media/Mobile%20Uploads/FD2FACF5-89A3-45E9-841C-C1DE18DD878F_zpstuzdhb2y.jpeg.html)
(https://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll127/nu2trout/Mobile%20Uploads/C23B6212-3342-401D-96DA-F0D97785CB25_zpsuctisrov.jpeg) (https://s287.photobucket.com/user/nu2trout/media/Mobile%20Uploads/C23B6212-3342-401D-96DA-F0D97785CB25_zpsuctisrov.jpeg.html)
here is what i was able to take this morning. I hope it helps and gives you an idea of what i am trying to describe. I will get a better picture when i get home today and try to get some straight lines down to give a better idea of the front tire. I hope these are not too distorted and make things look worse than they are.
these are a little blury so click on them and you get a better picture.
Fingers crossed you are not about to tell me some really bad news [help]
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Well, for me. The first pic looks like both tires are toe out. But the bottom pic the tire looks to be out of camber, looks like the top of the tire is leaning in. I think the camera angles are messing it up.
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i was afraid of that. I will get some better straight on pics tonight. I noticed the camber when i looked at the picture and havent noticed that before.
I will get some measurements and reference points when i take pics this afternoon.
I think it will be difficult to get both tires in the same frame without looking toed out due to the lens. i will play around with it, but the passenger tire may be the best i can do for clarity of the issue. i will get lower to the ground for a more head on representation.
the steering wheel is set for the wheels to be straight ahead in the pics.
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You can’t tell anything by looking at it. The tires will always look toed out. The alignment shop should still have the print out. Until you either throw a tape on it or get the print out you are just wasting everybody’s time.
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I was afraid of that too and dont want to waste anyones time.
I will call the shop that did the alignment and see if they still have the info.
I will get some measurements later today and see if i can make sense of this and then i will get to Allsouth next week for an inspection.
thanks and apologies for wasting time
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You can’t tell anything by looking at it. The tires will always look toed out. The alignment shop should still have the print out. Until you either throw a tape on it or get the print out you are just wasting everybody’s time.
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It's not wasting anyone time for someone to learn.
That's why people ask to try and learn. If we have
something to offer or advice then let's respond.
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You can’t tell anything by looking at it. The tires will always look toed out. The alignment shop should still have the print out. Until you either throw a tape on it or get the print out you are just wasting everybody’s time.
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It's not wasting anyone time for someone to learn.
That's why people ask to try and learn. If we have
something to offer or advice then let's respond.
Actually it is wasting time. The solution to all these toe,caster, and camber questions is to get the alignment printout and see the real numbers. I'd be willing to bet with that printout the issue will be pretty obvious.
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You can’t tell anything by looking at it. The tires will always look toed out. The alignment shop should still have the print out. Until you either throw a tape on it or get the print out you are just wasting everybody’s time.
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It's not wasting anyone time for someone to learn.
That's why people ask to try and learn. If we have
something to offer or advice then let's respond.
we did, and it seems like we are going around in circles with it. its frustrating to offer advice and it not be acknowledged, happens here alot, definitely not just in this thread.
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My apologies. We can shut this thread down now. I will take it to a shop and let them tell me whatever they want to tell me. I did not get a printout of the alignment but i did stand right next to the tech as he did it and asked several questions. He said the toe was the worst he had seen and it was about 4-5 degree s out of toe. He adjusted to the specified numbers he told me he was looking for. He drove the jeep and said he did not feel the problem.
I will call and ask for a print out but i do not know what that would say, since i have not looked at one before. He said it was good and i took him at his word.
My apologies again for wasting your time, but all of your advice has been taken. Sorry I cannot run out and leave my job to run to a shop and purchase parts until we correct (or mask the issue enough to give me a fasle sense of security). I am simply trying to lessen the learning curve and be more informed so when i get to a shop I will be able to tell if tey are blowing smoke.
I will go back to Youtube and see if other people have had this issue and see how they have resolved it.
Again, please close/delete/lock this thread.
Keith - don't take the directness as a desire to not help. Unfortunately without measurements there isn't much anyone can tell you and the alignment printout is the best way to get accurate measurements. People can speculate based off of pictures, but you'll just end up chasing your tail and possibly throwing money at something that isn't an issue. If you can get the printout from the alignment shop and post a picture of it here, you'll get a much better answer or at least be able to rule some things out.
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@Nu2Jeeps trying to reply to PM, but says your inbox is full.
Feel free to email me, Ag@allsouthautosports.com ,if it is easier for you to communicate that way.
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No need to apologize. Some people here dont have much of a filter, so dont take anything personally.
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No need to apologize. Some people here dont have much of a filter, so dont take anything personally.
Yeah, please don't stop asking questions. You're helping others, including me.
Some people, especially Mountain folk, know everything about everything (must be nice), but us city slickers don't.
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Thank you for the encouragement, but my goal was never to waste anyone's time.
I took some time to work through other options and research more material.
I took the Jeep back to the shop that did the alignment, and they drove it and told me the ball joints need to be replaced ASAP (just a couple of weeks ago they said they would need to be replaced at some point in the future) They did give me another stock track bar, bc the jam nut on the one i had installed would not stay tight ( i think some anti seize was on the nut threads for some reason).
So i called the Roswell store (same company) and was determined to get the ball joints and install them over the holidays, when i arrived i spoke with the guy behind the counter and went over everything. He said he did not want to sell me the ball joints until his guys could look at it, and since the other store didnt give me a printout of the alignment he wanted to redo it for free so they had a baseline.
i went back yesterday, and they aligned it and tightened up a few things, and found that my steering stabilizer was bent (probably from the stump i tried to remove from AOP). They threw an old man emu on and test drove it again, and with traffic in roswell and being a few minutes before closing time he didnt get a good feel for it.
On my way home i noticed it was pulling arder to the right than before.
I am stumped!
Everyone i have asked has said the sector shaft brace is not the answer but it is the only thing i have found in my research that has stopped similar issues on other jeeps.
I have a former neighbor that works for a Jeep dealership and i am searching for his contact info to see if this might be a warranty issue and i can get something done.
Really at a loss.
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Planman has a great walk through in diagnosing, excuse my language, death wobble. I think it’s on YT. Even though that’s not the issue, it’ll help you with doing a front end steering check.
I don’t see how the sector shaft brace would do anything other than keep it from breaking. It’s a solid piece, so if you are experiencing play at that point, my thought would be steering box.
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i have been wondering if a steering box might be the issue, and that is why i am reaching out to a dealer to check on warranty info.
i saw a video, and I think i linked it in a previous post, about a guy with a similar issue in a JL. The shop installed the SH and TB brace and then they filmed him driving and the issue was gone.
i will check out the video you suggested, and he has been suggested before.
I will keep you updated and hopefully if anyone ever has this issue again they will find the answer here.
Have a nice day
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I have had my share of steering issues; some Stabilizers will push or pull. I found that the OEM worked the best and this was after trying a FOX (it pushed left) Is the steering loose or does it just drift?
If your alignment is correct you should be able to drive with out the stabilizer (remove it) if it drifts or pulls either way then I'd look at the tires.
I have a JKS Drag link new that I never used if your interested. I'll sell it cheap. $50.00
What shop are you going to? Some are better than others.
And don't worry about wasting anyone's time. They wouldn't be on here if they were worried about their precious time. They'd be out doing something else.
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Sorry didn't want to read it all, you have swapped the tires around?
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I would love the drag link, i will message you
I rotated the tires when i installed the lift.
i am talking with my former neighbor that is a jeep dealer and see what he says
it seems to pull to the right since i had it "fixed" earlier this week.
I dont feel a lot of slop or play in the steering.
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well i told you i would update you when i had something to share.
to this point i have had the jeep aligned 6 times in a year, two in the first two days of ownership, and 4 other times at the jeep shop in marietta & roswell.
i was told i needed new ball joints, so i replaced the stock ones (which seemed fine to me) with the teraflex HD ball joints. Nothing improved on the pull to the right. I had it aligned, not better.
I added a sector shaft and trackbar brace from synergy. Steering was tighter but no change in the pull to the right. I had a new steering stabilzer put in bc i bent the stock on at AOP in Tenn.
The last time i was at the jeep shop (same one) the shop foreman came out and said my axle was not square under the jeep. I said i have a stock track bar under it. I went home measured and I was about an inch off to the drivers side. I placed the super lift track bar under it and squared up the axle, no change in the pull to the right.
As i look at the jeep from the front i swear to you i can tell the passenger tire is toed out, but why would this be so if they aligned it?
I found the original invoice in the paperwork and found what looked to be the original owner and his email address. I reached out and that person said they had never sold a jeep and didnt know what i was talking about (i found that very odd).
what do you think could be causing this pull to the right?
is there a chance the axle tube was bent, or the knuckle is damaged?
what is the possibility that the steering components are slipping after the alignments?
I am really at a loss.
i have spoken to a buddy at a jeep dealership and he said it was not likely the steering box was messed up, and the sector shaft should have negated some of that.
Any thoughts?
i have rotated the tires and tried different pressures (in all 4 tires, not varying pressures in different tires)
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Mine has always had a little bit of a pull. Atleast since lifting it. Nothing major, not enough to keep me awake at night. I’m used to it now. Might just be something you’re over analyzing.
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Where do you notice it pulling to the right? Both highway and surface streets?
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i dont think i am over analyzing it. it should drive straight, anything else is a potential problem. It did this before the 2.5 lift.
It pulls no matter where i am driving, through the neighborhood or on the interstate.
Thanks guys.
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i emailed the shop where it has been aligned 4 times and they got right back to me last night and said it would be a topic of their monday meeting and they would contact me after the meeting.
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have you verified the pull is still there with the steering damper removed ? Ideally, we should not need a steering stabilizer on an aligned Jeep but they smooth out the jolts inherent in a straight axle vehicle. One test to eliminate any possibility it's the SS is to drive it w/out.
I suspect yours will still push towards pssgr without SS.
Then , have you gotten accurate weight of each wheel / tire ? how much do the 2weigh total ? I have experienced inept or not strong enough AFTERMARKET trackbar flex as I turned steering but I didn't notice until I videoed it from the front . The weight of tire/wheel was too much and it was flexing.
Nittos are notoriously heavy , beefy tires.
The OEM jk links are not made for much more than the OEM wheel tire combo. I'd be curious how heavy 1 of your tires and wheels weighs in at ...
a steering gear can 100% look straight,after months of looking at it and seeing straight splines from straight on view . They can absolutely appear to not be messed up but be bent. specifically , the sector shaft can have extremely well hidden orbital bend that can only be detected by lying directly underneath the steering gear - front of rig while a buddy turns wheel lock to lock. You look up at the sector rotation curve to see if there's any lateral egging rotation = bent sector shaft.
I've replaced jku steering gear thrice,fwiw.
If I had to guess , I'd say one of your lower control arm mounts was slightly bent and is causing the normal floatiness of the live axle to be magnified by a subtle bend that's causing the drift to pssgr side.
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3rd post over a year ago i said track bar, what blows my mind is it took 6 times at shops for anyone at all to notice the axle was pushed to one side. It will absolutely have to be aligned again after changing that, the reason it appears toed out is bc the shops were trying to compensate for the pull. Find a different shop, just because some guy is looking at a computer screen that says the alignment is "correct" doesnt mean it is for your Jeep. Those specs the alignment computers go by are for stock height/stock tires, NOT a lifted rig, no matter what they tell you.
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Thank you for those last two posts.
I have not weighed the tires and wheels, but the shop said they put a different set on the jeep and tried it. The wheels and tires have been moved around several times and that is not the issue. I am now curious about the lower CA brackets.
I was also amazed it took that many times for someone to tell me the axle was off to one side. I placed a new adjustable super lift track bar in it and squared it up and the problem persisted.
I took it back to the shop and they had it all day and the best i could get was we moved the track bar over a 1/4 inch to try and offset the pull (didnt work). They aligned it again and it was pulling even when the tech drove it, but it is not as bad he said lmao
it has been a few weeks and I happened to look at it closely this afternoon ( see image). I noticed from straight on with the steering wheel straight that i could see slightly more of the inside passenger wheel than the driver wheel (toed out).
I have a realtive that is a mechanic on heavy machinery and his race cars so i gave him a call. After a video of the tie rod and drag links being turned he believes there is significant play in the drag link joint near the passenger tire. I wish i could load the video.
So my new question, can a bad drag link joint cause this constant toeing out? I feel like the passenger tires is pointing about 10 degrees while the driver is straight.
I hate to keep throwing money at it and guessing. I dont mind paying to get it fixed, and you would think after 7 times in a Jeep shop they would have a better guess than relocating the TB 1/4 to the driver side.
I really want to figure it out before there a catostrophic failure while driving.
Thanks guys
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Thank you for those last two posts.
I have not weighed the tires and wheels, but the shop said they put a different set on the jeep and tried it. The wheels and tires have been moved around several times and that is not the issue. I am now curious about the lower CA brackets.
I was also amazed it took that many times for someone to tell me the axle was off to one side. I placed a new adjustable super lift track bar in it and squared it up and the problem persisted.
I took it back to the shop and they had it all day and the best i could get was we moved the track bar over a 1/4 inch to try and offset the pull (didnt work). They aligned it again and it was pulling even when the tech drove it, but it is not as bad he said lmao
it has been a few weeks and I happened to look at it closely this afternoon ( see image). I noticed from straight on with the steering wheel straight that i could see slightly more of the inside passenger wheel than the driver wheel (toed out).
I have a realtive that is a mechanic on heavy machinery and his race cars so i gave him a call. After a video of the tie rod and drag links being turned he believes there is significant play in the drag link joint near the passenger tire. I wish i could load the video.
So my new question, can a bad drag link joint cause this constant toeing out? I feel like the passenger tires is pointing about 10 degrees while the driver is straight.
I hate to keep throwing money at it and guessing. I dont mind paying to get it fixed, and you would think after 7 times in a Jeep shop they would have a better guess than relocating the TB 1/4 to the driver side.
I really want to figure it out before there a catostrophic failure while driving.
Thanks guys
What shops have you taken the jeep?
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Thank you for those last two posts.
I have not weighed the tires and wheels, but the shop said they put a different set on the jeep and tried it. The wheels and tires have been moved around several times and that is not the issue. I am now curious about the lower CA brackets.
I was also amazed it took that many times for someone to tell me the axle was off to one side. I placed a new adjustable super lift track bar in it and squared it up and the problem persisted.
I took it back to the shop and they had it all day and the best i could get was we moved the track bar over a 1/4 inch to try and offset the pull (didnt work). They aligned it again and it was pulling even when the tech drove it, but it is not as bad he said lmao
it has been a few weeks and I happened to look at it closely this afternoon ( see image). I noticed from straight on with the steering wheel straight that i could see slightly more of the inside passenger wheel than the driver wheel (toed out).
I have a realtive that is a mechanic on heavy machinery and his race cars so i gave him a call. After a video of the tie rod and drag links being turned he believes there is significant play in the drag link joint near the passenger tire. I wish i could load the video.
So my new question, can a bad drag link joint cause this constant toeing out? I feel like the passenger tires is pointing about 10 degrees while the driver is straight.
I hate to keep throwing money at it and guessing. I dont mind paying to get it fixed, and you would think after 7 times in a Jeep shop they would have a better guess than relocating the TB 1/4 to the driver side.
I really want to figure it out before there a catostrophic failure while driving.
Thanks guys
did you take 30 seconds and lie beneath the pitman arm/ sector shaft looking straightup at the sector shaft while someone was turning the wheel back & forth as you observed it's axial rotation as I'd suggested?
I hunted almost exact issue , including ' mystery toe out' for a whole Summer b4 I did so.
I saw an orbital bend in my 2nd stock steering gear sector shaft on my 2011 jku . It would push the toe out w/ multiple , known good drag links.
this bend in sector shaft did not show up laterally AT ALL. you could not see it bent from head on , side on , thru the engine bay down ward....only lying right dead center beneath it was it revealed.
might not be your issue but it'd be worth the 15 seconds to lie under there and check if the sector shaft pivots straight.
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Thank you for those last two posts.
I have not weighed the tires and wheels, but the shop said they put a different set on the jeep and tried it. The wheels and tires have been moved around several times and that is not the issue. I am now curious about the lower CA brackets.
I was also amazed it took that many times for someone to tell me the axle was off to one side. I placed a new adjustable super lift track bar in it and squared it up and the problem persisted.
I took it back to the shop and they had it all day and the best i could get was we moved the track bar over a 1/4 inch to try and offset the pull (didnt work). They aligned it again and it was pulling even when the tech drove it, but it is not as bad he said lmao
it has been a few weeks and I happened to look at it closely this afternoon ( see image). I noticed from straight on with the steering wheel straight that i could see slightly more of the inside passenger wheel than the driver wheel (toed out).
I have a realtive that is a mechanic on heavy machinery and his race cars so i gave him a call. After a video of the tie rod and drag links being turned he believes there is significant play in the drag link joint near the passenger tire. I wish i could load the video.
So my new question, can a bad drag link joint cause this constant toeing out? I feel like the passenger tires is pointing about 10 degrees while the driver is straight.
I hate to keep throwing money at it and guessing. I dont mind paying to get it fixed, and you would think after 7 times in a Jeep shop they would have a better guess than relocating the TB 1/4 to the driver side.
I really want to figure it out before there a catostrophic failure while driving.
Thanks guys
did you take 30 seconds and lie beneath the pitman arm/ sector shaft looking straightup at the sector shaft while someone was turning the wheel back & forth as you observed it's axial rotation as I'd suggested?
I hunted almost exact issue , including ' mystery toe out' for a whole Summer b4 I did so.
I saw an orbital bend in my 2nd stock steering gear sector shaft on my 2011 jku . It would push the toe out w/ multiple , known good drag links.
this bend in sector shaft did not show up laterally AT ALL. you could not see it bent from head on , side on , thru the engine bay down ward....only lying right dead center beneath it was it revealed.
might not be your issue but it'd be worth the 15 seconds to lie under there and check if the sector shaft pivots straight.
Dang it, Jeffrey, is it 30 seconds or 15 seconds?
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Thank you for those last two posts.
I have not weighed the tires and wheels, but the shop said they put a different set on the jeep and tried it. The wheels and tires have been moved around several times and that is not the issue. I am now curious about the lower CA brackets.
I was also amazed it took that many times for someone to tell me the axle was off to one side. I placed a new adjustable super lift track bar in it and squared it up and the problem persisted.
I took it back to the shop and they had it all day and the best i could get was we moved the track bar over a 1/4 inch to try and offset the pull (didnt work). They aligned it again and it was pulling even when the tech drove it, but it is not as bad he said lmao
it has been a few weeks and I happened to look at it closely this afternoon ( see image). I noticed from straight on with the steering wheel straight that i could see slightly more of the inside passenger wheel than the driver wheel (toed out).
I have a realtive that is a mechanic on heavy machinery and his race cars so i gave him a call. After a video of the tie rod and drag links being turned he believes there is significant play in the drag link joint near the passenger tire. I wish i could load the video.
So my new question, can a bad drag link joint cause this constant toeing out? I feel like the passenger tires is pointing about 10 degrees while the driver is straight.
I hate to keep throwing money at it and guessing. I dont mind paying to get it fixed, and you would think after 7 times in a Jeep shop they would have a better guess than relocating the TB 1/4 to the driver side.
I really want to figure it out before there a catostrophic failure while driving.
Thanks guys
did you take 30 seconds and lie beneath the pitman arm/ sector shaft looking straightup at the sector shaft while someone was turning the wheel back & forth as you observed it's axial rotation as I'd suggested?
I hunted almost exact issue , including ' mystery toe out' for a whole Summer b4 I did so.
I saw an orbital bend in my 2nd stock steering gear sector shaft on my 2011 jku . It would push the toe out w/ multiple , known good drag links.
this bend in sector shaft did not show up laterally AT ALL. you could not see it bent from head on , side on , thru the engine bay down ward....only lying right dead center beneath it was it revealed.
might not be your issue but it'd be worth the 15 seconds to lie under there and check if the sector shaft pivots straight.
Dang it, Jeffrey, is it 30 seconds or 15 seconds?
fair question.
it is 30 seconds .
( diagnosis only takes 15 seconds but the other 15 will be used to yell at whomever you've chosen to sit in driver seat , turning the wheel on the running Jeep you are lying under the steering gear at, trying to get them to hear you over the noise and hood)
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Thank you for those last two posts.
I have not weighed the tires and wheels, but the shop said they put a different set on the jeep and tried it. The wheels and tires have been moved around several times and that is not the issue. I am now curious about the lower CA brackets.
I was also amazed it took that many times for someone to tell me the axle was off to one side. I placed a new adjustable super lift track bar in it and squared it up and the problem persisted.
I took it back to the shop and they had it all day and the best i could get was we moved the track bar over a 1/4 inch to try and offset the pull (didnt work). They aligned it again and it was pulling even when the tech drove it, but it is not as bad he said lmao
it has been a few weeks and I happened to look at it closely this afternoon ( see image). I noticed from straight on with the steering wheel straight that i could see slightly more of the inside passenger wheel than the driver wheel (toed out).
I have a realtive that is a mechanic on heavy machinery and his race cars so i gave him a call. After a video of the tie rod and drag links being turned he believes there is significant play in the drag link joint near the passenger tire. I wish i could load the video.
So my new question, can a bad drag link joint cause this constant toeing out? I feel like the passenger tires is pointing about 10 degrees while the driver is straight.
I hate to keep throwing money at it and guessing. I dont mind paying to get it fixed, and you would think after 7 times in a Jeep shop they would have a better guess than relocating the TB 1/4 to the driver side.
I really want to figure it out before there a catostrophic failure while driving.
Thanks guys
did you take 30 seconds and lie beneath the pitman arm/ sector shaft looking straightup at the sector shaft while someone was turning the wheel back & forth as you observed it's axial rotation as I'd suggested?
I hunted almost exact issue , including ' mystery toe out' for a whole Summer b4 I did so.
I saw an orbital bend in my 2nd stock steering gear sector shaft on my 2011 jku . It would push the toe out w/ multiple , known good drag links.
this bend in sector shaft did not show up laterally AT ALL. you could not see it bent from head on , side on , thru the engine bay down ward....only lying right dead center beneath it was it revealed.
might not be your issue but it'd be worth the 15 seconds to lie under there and check if the sector shaft pivots straight.
Dang it, Jeffrey, is it 30 seconds or 15 seconds?
fair question.
it is 30 seconds .
( diagnosis only takes 15 seconds but the other 15 will be used to yell at whomever you've chosen to sit in driver seat , turning the wheel on the running Jeep you are lying under the steering gear at, trying to get them to hear you over the noise and hood)
I was thinking, " 220, 221, whatever it takes"
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I would rather not call out the Jeep shop that used to have a shop in marietta, but it recently closed.
They called me this afternoon and said they want to look at it again, they have anew idea that it is a bad wheel bearing. I will let them look at it again next week.
I will lay under the jeep and look for the movement in the sector shaft. I did put a synergy manufacturing sector shaft brace on it a couple of months ago.
They did take the steering stabilizer off to drive it. I didnt answer that question earlier.
I found on a jeep forum that a bad drag link joint can cause alignment but the jeep shop said that should not be the case.
I am really at a loss, and just venting at this point.
So many thoughts and ideas coming at me I dont know which way is up to be honest.
I was actually searching Northridge 4x4 and about to purchase a synergy tie rod and drag link when the phone rang.
I did as him if they would put a drag link on and align it to see if that was the problem.
Updates to come.
Thanks guys! I would much rather be spending this money on a winch and 35s
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OK
so i had it back in the sop today!
they checked the wheel bearing on the front passenger, it was good.
they reset my trackbar to square up the front axle (they off set it to over correct the issue last time)
they said there is slight play in the drag link "but that wont cause it to pull right"
they told me they want to put adjustable CA upper and lower in the front and push the passenger side forward so there would be no way the jeep could pull right.
He did say while they had it in the air they noticed the sector shaft moving more than it should, front to back rather than side to side.
"we had four techs drive it and they all feel the pull to the right but agree its not a big deal" my response, it is not correct and I dont want to take a chance on whatever is wrong getting worse and causing a catastrophic failure. "I asure you that will not happen"
I left and dont plan to return
I Just spoke to Shottenkirk Dodge Jeep manager on a recommendation of a buddy, they are going to put their top jeep tech on it and figure out what is wrong. He assured me they would get to the bottom of it.
Next chapter to be written next wednesday.
Stay tuned
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There's a ghost in there somewhere!
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Gonna go ahead and say it. Dude is gonna come back in 6 months with the same issue asking the same questions. Smh
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They’ve ruled out anything that could cause “catastrophic failure”. A solid axle suspension is going to drive and behave differently than a rack and pinion. It’s just the trade off you make
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Don't take it to a dealer. Jeep Tech has a monster alignment machine and knows how to use it. Give them a call.
Isn't "Dealer Top Jeep Tech" and oxymoron?
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band aids for days when all it needs is the proper alignment by someone that knows what they are doing.
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ok so after three and a half days the dealer's tech has come up with a caster issue. How can a caster issue have occurred when the jeep was not lifter before i bought it and it was pulling right, and then with the 2 1/2 in lift installed.
the parts are 41$ and the video i saw online shows them punching a hole in the control arm bolt hole to elongate the hole so the caster can be adjusted.
thoughts?
I called Jeep and they were not much help since it is out of warranty, and there has been no proof of anything like this occurring before i owned it.
hate to spend the money they want for the fix but if it fixes it i guess it will be worth it, but I could buy a new winch for their price. I am just afraid i wont get it exact if i do it, and it will need an alignment after that anyway.
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ok so after three and a half days the dealer's tech has come up with a caster issue. How can a caster issue have occurred when the jeep was not lifter before i bought it and it was pulling right, and then with the 2 1/2 in lift installed.
the parts are 41$ and the video i saw online shows them punching a hole in the control arm bolt hole to elongate the hole so the caster can be adjusted.
thoughts?
I called Jeep and they were not much help since it is out of warranty, and there has been no proof of anything like this occurring before i owned it.
hate to spend the money they want for the fix but if it fixes it i guess it will be worth it, but I could buy a new winch for their price. I am just afraid i wont get it exact if i do it, and it will need an alignment after that anyway.
Absolutely DO NOT elongate bolt holes. This is the reason they make adjustable control arms. Most decent lift kits come with them to correct the caster. I'd even bet someone here has a set they arent using.
@ACGiddens with Allsouth Autosports offered earlier in this thread to look at it for free and diagnose the problem at their shop. I would highly suggest going this route before I ruined bolt holes to use shitty caster bolts
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You still haven't posted alignment numbers. How bad is the caster?
It is possible that the control arm bolts were not properly torqued (could be either over or under torqued) and have loosened causing the bolts to wallow out the holes in the mounts on one side.
Typically caster affects return to center on the steering and the right way to adjust the caster on a solid axle suspension is by changing the length of the control arms to rotate the axle around it's centerline. Don't go punching holes, it's a cheap way out and isn't good.
If you're slightly mechanically inclined you can easily do this work yourself by getting a set of adjustable control arms and an angle finder. Use the lowers to place the axle where it needs to be and the uppers to rotate it to the right caster. Make sure the left and right sides are equal so that you don't induce a pull to one side by angling the axle.
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there is a kit from Mopar that makes and oval hole where the stock hole is so they can rotate the bolt and adjust the CA forward and back, the jeep dealer said the caster is 2.1 and 2.2 positive right now. I am waiting on a call back to get a guarantee that this will work, and find out what they are going to do if it doesnt.
even if i get the Adjust. CA i would have to have them installed and alignment done again which will be more than the cam bolts.
just so confused. [help] [help]
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For a stock JK the recommended caster is 4 deg. The larger tires you run the more caster you need to help return to center. The L/R difference of 0.1 deg shouldn’t be causing you to drift to one side.
Also, there is no way slotting your mounts will net you 2 deg. more. The cam bolts won’t help you in this case. You’ll need adjustable arms to get this much caster back. If the dealer is trying to sell you on this I would run and find another shop that knows what they’re doing.
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I have never heard of ovaling a bolt hole to fix a caster issue.
Not sure who gave that advise, but I would get a second opinion. Adjustable control arms fix caster without ruining a perfectly good bolt hole.
Post the video of someone ovaling a hole. I sure would like to see it.
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They literally sell kits to reinforce bolt holes so they DON'T oval out and cause death wobble. At face value that sounds awful. Sounds like you got the dealership tech that had to replace my headliner in my truck 3x before I just decided to glue it up myself(like 3+yrs and still going good on my fix). Joking, but maybe not. Buy some adjustable lower arms and fix your caster there or have a good shop like AllSouth do it.
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I have never heard of ovaling a bolt hole to fix a caster issue.
Not sure who gave that advise, but I would get a second opinion. Adjustable control arms fix caster without ruining a perfectly good bolt hole.
Post the video of someone ovaling a hole. I sure would like to see it.
I believe my ZJ used caster bolts on elongated bolt holes from the factory
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This is a JKU
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I have never heard of ovaling a bolt hole to fix a caster issue.
Not sure who gave that advise, but I would get a second opinion. Adjustable control arms fix caster without ruining a perfectly good bolt hole.
Post the video of someone ovaling a hole. I sure would like to see it.
Slotted holes with a c welded to the mount for a cam bolt to use isn’t bad, as long as you use proper torque on the bolts. Look up how slip critical connections work. That’s essentially every suspension bolt on a vehicle. It uses clamping force to hold it in place regardless of hole size.
That being said, without the c’s on the mount, how is the cam bolt supposed to work? Even if there were c’s there’s no way you’ll get ENOUGH caster back from a slot and cam bolt.
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@Jeeptrk What do you think should be done at this point, given the new information?
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this is the only thing i could find about this kit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PRG_HkhrqU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PRG_HkhrqU)
i have asked them what guarantee they will give me that this works, and i have asked to speak directly to the technician
I have 17x9 wheels and 33 inch nitto terra grapplers
can these tires and wheels throw the caster off that much? this has been happening since i bought the jeep and it had this combo on it already?
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Tires and wheels do not change your caster, they create a need to change caster.
You're going to listen to whatever that tech spews out, so it really doesn't matter what we say when it comes to not going with cam bolts. An at home alignment as far as caster is concerned is crazy easy. All you need is an angle finder (preferably digital to make it easier), the ability to change lengths of control arms, and a flat surface.
If it has been happening since you bought the jeep, and there wasn't a lift on it when you bought it, I would say that the caster rabbit hole isn't going to fix your issue. Unless the control arms are screwed up, or it was very poorly aligned from a previous owner, there shouldn't have been caster issues then. Have you had anyone check if the axle is bent?
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I appreciate the confidence!!
If I was going to listen to the tech and what he is spewing then i would not be asking you guys for your thoughts, I would have said they fixed it thanks for the input. But, I am trying to gain more information so when i do talk to the tech i can ask educated questions and rebut his answers on these cam bolts.
I have wondered if the axle it bent, and I will ask him to measure that.
I still say there is something wrong in the steering box, and I will ask him to check that as well.
As mentioned before, the jeep shop wants to put CA on it and push the passenger side forward to over compensate for the pull, I was not ok with masking the issue like that. If Adjust CA will correct the issue i would buy some but we are not sure that is the REAL ISSUE.
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@Jeeptrk What do you think should be done at this point, given the new information?
dont get me started. im pretty sure he cant see my replies anyways.
@jesseshoots the increase in positive caster is not always the answer, as a matter of fact, when you get to a certain point in tire size and lift/height/weight over stock you actually want negative caster to increase your return to center and make it easier to combat dw.
ive tried to say multiple times that "stock" numbers and some crap on a screen dont mean jack when you are dealing with these jeeps, you need actual critical thinking and someone who actually knows what they are looking at.
theres no fn way id let someone egg a hole to correct a problem when we have said adjustable ca and track bars from the beginning. this is in no way acceptable from any sort of respectable shop or mechanic. if it were my jeep, i would take advise and offers given and take it to AA and let @ACGiddens actually fix it correctly, i mean, he did offer to diagnose for free right??
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@jesseshoots the increase in positive caster is not always the answer, as a matter of fact, when you get to a certain point in tire size and lift/height/weight over stock you actually want negative caster to increase your return to center and make it easier to combat dw.
I've never heard of this before! I'm no suspension guru by any means, but I like to think I have a better understanding than some. What situations call for a need to go negative on caster?
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Guys in this club know what they are talking about. I started out putting
my 2'' lift on, then after bad mistakes like 3'' body lift, then scratch all that.
I finally put on a 4'' lift, then I put on adjustable control arms. I don't
think I've ever had that much problem but then again I wasn't to picky
either.
I do know ONE thing for sure I would never take a Jeep to a dealership
or regular shop. Worse thing you can do. Take it to a OFF-ROAD SHOP
their not all the same but if they go offroading and build there own rigs
then it's got to better. The reason members keep saying Allsouth is at
some point or other they have worked on most of the Jeeps here.
They have built some of the baddest rigs in the club and they wheel
their selves. They have built and worked on some of the most complex
rigs. Members can get discounts and if AC Giddens offered to diagnose
for free.....
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@Jeeptrk What do you think should be done at this point, given the new information?
... i would take advise and offers given and take it to AA and let @ACGiddens actually fix it correctly, i mean, he did offer to diagnose for free right??
True Story. I was there.
Time flies, that back in November and the issues still has not been solved, I think we scheduled something but never got the jeep here.
Still Happy to take a look.
Give us a call and we'll get something scheduled.
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I bought up the fix they offered so i could get feedback from you, all. I was not a fan of the idea when i looked up the "fix". Since i have been having the issues from day one i dont see how this will fix it.
At this point i am not sure Ad CA will fix it, from everything i have been told on here and at the jeep shop. The only reason it is in the dealers garage is bc the Jeep shop could not fix it. there is something going on that several techs have not thought about and been able to diagnose. I wish i had the cash to purchase a new set of CA, but at this point i feel like i would be throwing another possible band-aid on it.
Some one did offer to look at it some time ago and I could not get that far from home to run over and have it diagnosed. I went to the jeep shop I could get to. Now they have exhausted every option and it seems like the dealership top tech is at loss.
there is a gremlin in here and I need to find it. I wish i could throw a steering box on to see if that would work. I will ask someone to check the axle for a bend. Would something else under the front end have bent as well if the axle was damaged like that?
I sense everyone's frustration with this, and with what you seem to think is my lack of desire to listen and take your advice. I am frustrated as well, but appreciate every bit of knowledge you are offering. I am learning what to ask and what to look for, as well as what not to do.
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@jesseshoots the increase in positive caster is not always the answer, as a matter of fact, when you get to a certain point in tire size and lift/height/weight over stock you actually want negative caster to increase your return to center and make it easier to combat dw.
I've never heard of this before! I'm no suspension guru by any means, but I like to think I have a better understanding than some. What situations call for a need to go negative on caster?
This would only be for a high pinion axle right?
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I have been in a similar situation with a Dealer. My response to the head of their Service Department was to put it back together. As I was calling a tow truck to Take it to Allsouth Autosports. I live in downtown Atlanta. I am not close to any dealerships or Allsouth. On more than one occasion I have had my Jeep hauled to Allsouth on a Flat bed. I'd rather it be there for a couple weeks and get fixed than go back an forth to an incompetent shop.
2 shops in Atlanta that I trust are Allsouth and Jeep Tech. I don't trust any dealership because of the crap they try to pass off.
Justin, Adam, Clark, Sam, Tony have all said what we have all thought and been through. I trust the guys on this forum more than any tech. Look at their builds.
If I were you I would tell em to get it ready and send a flat bed to pick it up.
Let us know how it works out for you.
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@jesseshoots the increase in positive caster is not always the answer, as a matter of fact, when you get to a certain point in tire size and lift/height/weight over stock you actually want negative caster to increase your return to center and make it easier to combat dw.
I've never heard of this before! I'm no suspension guru by any means, but I like to think I have a better understanding than some. What situations call for a need to go negative on caster?
This would only be for a high pinion axle right?
I had issues early in my build, on d44s and 37s with death wobble, I had originally set the steering knuckles close to neutral, I think just over positive maybe 1.5deg. Several different attempts changing toe in/out I finally called my suspension guru/shock tuner and was told to go negative, like 7degrees negative. I literally said what the shit? he goes, just try it, and bam, fixed it. It was explained to me in simple terms that it would increase the steerings ability to return to center and stay centered. When you look into it, alot of teams and crawlers run some negative caster on the knuckles. It would def be easier to run neg on a HP axle, but unsure about only HP. Im in no way an engineer or expert, just trial and error and trying to listen to the experts when they are willing to take time to talk to me.
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@jesseshoots the increase in positive caster is not always the answer, as a matter of fact, when you get to a certain point in tire size and lift/height/weight over stock you actually want negative caster to increase your return to center and make it easier to combat dw.
I've never heard of this before! I'm no suspension guru by any means, but I like to think I have a better understanding than some. What situations call for a need to go negative on caster?
This would only be for a high pinion axle right?
I had issues early in my build, on d44s and 37s with death wobble, I had originally set the steering knuckles close to neutral, I think just over positive maybe 1.5deg. Several different attempts changing toe in/out I finally called my suspension guru/shock tuner and was told to go negative, like 7degrees negative. I literally said what the shit? he goes, just try it, and bam, fixed it. It was explained to me in simple terms that it would increase the steerings ability to return to center and stay centered. When you look into it, alot of teams and crawlers run some negative caster on the knuckles. It would def be easier to run neg on a HP axle, but unsure about only HP. Im in no way an engineer or expert, just trial and error and trying to listen to the experts when they are willing to take time to talk to me.
That's wild. I'll definitely put that in the knowledge bank.
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dealership just called and they are going to keep it a couple of days more to diagnose. They were not 100% sure the cam bolts were the fix.
I appreciate them being honest. The service rep said he is going to do more research and ask more people and call Jeep to see if they have ever heard of this issue before.
I asked him to check the steering box, and the sector shaft for strange movement. I also am wondering if some all four wheels are not square. Could there be an issue caused by the front passenger tire being farther back than the drive side. I will ask him to confirm all is square.
At this point i just dont think the caster is the issue.
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-Alignment multiple times by multiple shops/dealers including a "Jeep shop" that shall not be named.
-Rotate and balances
-Added a sector shaft and trackbar brace from synergy
-Installed teraflex HD ball joints
-A new steering stabilizer installed
-A superlift adj. track bar installed
I think these are the only actionable things that have been done on this from going back through this 1+ year thread besides a lot of advice, speculation and ideas. Correct me if there are more.
I think the only echoing advice here from the start, that has been continually ignored, has been get it to a reputable shop.
Took 1+ year for all involved to figure out the track was off.
I understand we might not be the closest or most convenient place to drop the Jeep off with based off your location but anything has to be more convenient then what you have gone through at this point.
[deadhorse]
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When the dealership can't fix it, take it to Jeep Tech and have them put it on their MONSTER new alignment machine.
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-Alignment multiple times by multiple shops/dealers including a "Jeep shop" that shall not be named.
-Rotate and balances
-Added a sector shaft and trackbar brace from synergy
-Installed teraflex HD ball joints
-A new steering stabilizer installed
-A superlift adj. track bar installed
I think these are the only actionable things that have been done on this from going back through this 1+ year thread besides a lot of advice, speculation and ideas. Correct me if there are more.
I think the only echoing advice here from the start, that has been continually ignored, has been get it to a reputable shop.
Took 1+ year for all involved to figure out the track was off.
I understand we might not be the closest or most convenient place to drop the Jeep off with based off your location but anything has to be more convenient then what you have gone through at this point.
[deadhorse]
i called trackbar in 3rd post [cheers] [oldskool]
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-Alignment multiple times by multiple shops/dealers including a "Jeep shop" that shall not be named.
-Rotate and balances
-Added a sector shaft and trackbar brace from synergy
-Installed teraflex HD ball joints
-A new steering stabilizer installed
-A superlift adj. track bar installed
I think these are the only actionable things that have been done on this from going back through this 1+ year thread besides a lot of advice, speculation and ideas. Correct me if there are more.
I think the only echoing advice here from the start, that has been continually ignored, has been get it to a reputable shop.
Took 1+ year for all involved to figure out the track was off.
I understand we might not be the closest or most convenient place to drop the Jeep off with based off your location but anything has to be more convenient then what you have gone through at this point.
[deadhorse]
Understood, and I was in the middle of sending you a PM when they called me back to say they were going to be doing more research to find a solution.
The thing is I thought I was taking it to a reputable Jeep shop. Lesson learned! I wont let them rotate my tires at this point.
When i get the jeep back home, and if it has not been 100% corrected, it will be in your shop ASAP. I will get it there some way when you tell me you can look at it. I did call and make an appointment with you and then something came up and caused me to cancel the appointment. Not knowing one Jeep shop from another I went with the closer one.
People have offered suggestions and I have tried to take it, and do what i could afford. I have spent money, and probably more than I would have if you looked at it, but again I thought I was going to a reputable place. It is only at the dealer because I thought it was a last resort and thought the people that built the vehicle might have a better idea of the issue, and possibly had seen it before.
The cam bolts will not be installed. I have racked my brain about what could possibly make something track to one side, like a physics problem. I have done as much research as I can (hence all of the questions) and have come to three thoughts; steering box, tires are not square (right side tires closer than the left side tires so it pulls like a conical cylinder rolling) - bent axle or CA not the same length.
More updates when i have it back, and I will provide the issue and the solution or let you know it is heading to All South.
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was called tonight about 7pm.
still no resolution. they wanted to say the aftermarket parts could be a cause, but i told them a few days ago the parts were suggested to correct the issue. He said something about the calling in engineers to try and figure it out. I asked if the wheels were all square and if the axle is bent and he told me there is nothing wrong with the axle. I asked, again, about the steering box and he said they have not checked that yet.
Looks like Monday or Tuesday before I will hear back.
I have a good amount of seat time in this 2020 JL Sport Unlimited now and feel like i could make a good review ;)
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May have resolved the steering issue updates soon
Adam was awesome to talk to me for so long today
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OK so first let me thank you all for the comments and suggestions over the past year plus.
Many of you have followed the saga for a long time, and have been frustrated as i have.
After months of trying to figure out the issue and multiple people having their hands on the vehicle and Adam spending so much time with me on the phone today I have a solution.
The Jeep dealer had it for two weeks, and offered camber bolts with no guarantee. Today they offered a Fox Heavy Duty steering stabilizer, and after putting them off until I could speak to AC Giddens at All South I made a decision. I spoke to Adam for 20+ minutes and we decided the SS would mask the issue and cause tires to wear quickly. He suggested upper and lower CA. My wife said she is sick of throwing money at the issue, and is afraid it will never be fixed. I am tired of dropping money when i could use it for other upgrades, and I fear for the safety of my passengers (my family).
No one can figure out why the tires keep toeing out shortly after an alignment so after more thought of the CAs and the money it would cost without gaurantee of a fix my wife made a decision, and I swear i was not on board and was standing in the parking lot about to cry i was so upset to make this decision. I told her it is not right and we should not do it! She insisted and so the decision was made.
So here it is a year after of discussion too much money wasted too many unanswered questions and a fear of breakage I bought a new Jeep. A 2021 JL (boy that is going to take some getting used to) Unlimited Sport.
It could not have worked out better and the dealership was seriously the best i have ever worked with while buying this Jeep. I told the salesman "I am not here to buy a Jeep and I do not want to buy a Jeep, so I wont BS you and I dont want you to BS me!" Long story short it was the best decision. No more issues with pulling, no more safety concerns, no more wasted money on monthly check ups at a Jeep/alignment shop. I am still wrestling with a car payment but it is very manageable due to the nice trade allowance.
I think we can officially close this thread, so thank you all for the responses. I am sorry we never truly solved the issue and I hope no one ever goes through something like this again. Throwing money at a problem and hoping it solves it sux.
cant wait to get this one a little dirty.
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Congrats. Looks awesome. Sometimes its easier to cut an run.
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Congrats on the JL, they're incredible! The only thing not to love about them are the payments
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Congrats on the JL, they're incredible! The only thing not to love about them are the payments
And recalls
Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
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Congrats on the JL, they're incredible! The only thing not to love about them are the payments
And recalls
Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
True! Not sure if the '21 versions have the fixes already. It was JUST bad frame welds and weak steering boxes that I can remember
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Congrats on the JL, they're incredible! The only thing not to love about them are the payments
And recalls
Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
True! Not sure if the '21 versions have the fixes already. It was JUST bad frame welds and weak steering boxes that I can remember
It's a Fiat, so there will be more
Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
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Congrats on the JL, they're incredible! The only thing not to love about them are the payments
And recalls
Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
True! Not sure if the '21 versions have the fixes already. It was JUST bad frame welds and weak steering boxes that I can remember
It's a Fiat, so there will be more
Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
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Congrats on the JL, they're incredible! The only thing not to love about them are the payments
And recalls
Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
True! Not sure if the '21 versions have the fixes already. It was JUST bad frame welds and weak steering boxes that I can remember
21' is the first year they come from the factory with a steel steering box instead of Aluminum. Im getting a free steel one for mine.
Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
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Thanks for the well wishes and understanding. I truly was. It an easy decision.
It feels great and looks good, and the wife like driving it. “It has more pep than the other one .”
The kids love it and and the peace of mind eases the frustration of payments.
Thanks again
Keith
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Did you put a note in the glove box of old Jeep, to give the new owners a heads up of the issues they just bought?
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they didnt give me a lot of time in the old jeep.
that is a great idea and I wish I had thought of that. It was such a whirlwind i was just ready to be done.
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Not being an ass but I wonder if the next owner will notice it as bad? Hell I don't pay a lot attention to little noises, check engine light (taped over it on my old Jeep) and such things. I've seen people about tear dashes apart over little noises.