Georgia Trail Riders Forum
MEMBERS DISCUSSION AREA => General Discussion => Topic started by: Joe3322 on October 30, 2014, 11:07:32 AM
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Hi Everyone,
I'm new to this forum and Jeeps. I've read what feels like millions of forum and debates on this issue but main question which I have not found an answer to is: Is it a weight or size issue for the axle and drivetrain? For example would 78lbs 35's be better or worse than 76 lbs 37's? Thank you in advance for feedback and I look forward to hitting the trails with you guys down here (just moved from Asheville Area).
Just for reference I have 30/44 axle and regearing to 4.88 with ARB and Artec Armor.
Thanks
Joe
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It is both a weight and a size issue.
If you had a 35 and a 37" tire that both weighed the same, the 37" would still provide more "leverage" due to the size. Think of a lever or a cheater bar you would use to get a bolt off. The longer the lever the more torque at the bolt with the same force at the end(you).
And, bigger tires typically weigh more but not always. If they do weigh more you then have both more force and more leverage.
But....bigger is better. Everyone knows that //;D//
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Thank you, that makes a lot of sense. Reason I asked is because I was looking into Nitto Trail Grapplers since I've had them on another vehicle and loved their performance but never realized how heavy they were for a 35. I just started offroading and quickly found my jeep dragging alot, so I picked up a set of rock hard armor (3 piece) to protect the undercarriage but that doesnt solve my clearance issue. So I'm in the process of ordering a RK 3.5" X Factor and was tempted to go with 37's but its starting to look like the extra 2" adds ALOT of extra cost and headache. So...back to my original plan...Opinion?
RK 3.5" X Factor (3" Bump stops)
Fox 2.0 Shocks
35" Trail Grappler (on stock 17 with spidrex spacers)
Fox ATS Stabilizer
Artec Axle Armor
Thanks in advance
Joe
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OK, so I wrote up the reply below before realizing you were on a D30 front. That's really the only reason I would consider 35's. There are plenty of guys (JKOwners, etc) that run 37's on D30. Other guys are more conservative and think its an risky way to go.
I'll leave my reply below because i'm still curious what extra costs you see based on moving from 35 to 37 that your plan hasn't already accounted for.
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Curious what extra costs you are seeing... in either case you need to have the axle "armored" with C-gussets and likely a truss (if you are actually doing offroad stuff).
Some will say that a driveshaft (or 2) is required on the JKU's wit 3.5" lift, but that's not related to tire size. And lots of guys run the stock shafts successfully for a long time and just replace when/if one fails.
You will already have all eight control arms with that lift kit... so you can push the rear axle back an inch to make room for the 37's. You would have to trim the pinch seam and shorten the Rubi Rails. But not much cost for that work.
Fender flare clearance will be a limiting factor if you don't trim the stock ones or install aftermarket tube fenders. Again, the cost is minimal if you simply trim the stockers...
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Joe, are you planning to run forest service trails, go mudding, crawl curbs at the mall, and/or climb rocks? If multiple...which is most important to you too be the most successful at?
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I guess in the long run there should not be to big of price difference, 37's would probably wear joints and other stuff quicker but thats to be expected. The only difference I see short term (from my understanding) is regearing, 35's can live w/o regear for awhile whereas 37's would be unbearable and require regear right away but again long term that was already budgeted so savings? not really...
I know a ton of people go through this decision with they get the JKU but Im stuck between 35's and 37's.... Can a trussed axle (dana 30) hold up over time with 37's?
clark- Still really new to this but so far a lot of forest service trails and a little climbing...I tend to stay away from just mudding. This is also my DD. I would say having a reliable DD that I can hit the Trails on the weekend.
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I know a ton of people go through this decision with they get the JKU but Im stuck between 35's and 37's.... Can a trussed axle (dana 30) hold up over time with 37's?
The truss strengthens the axle itself but does nothing for what I consider the weaker link...the axle shafts, ring & pinion. Unless you are doing high speed off road runs or REALLY bouncing your rig around you probably won't break the actually axle housing. I think a truss is fairly cheap insurance though, because it is certainly possible to bend an axle tube, just make sure you have someone that knows what they are doing when they weld it on.
You have the newer 3.6 motor correct? That allows you to gear correctly but not be on such a deep gear that they get weak. 5.13 and numerically up gears in the D30/44 get small on the pinion gear.
I would definitely do chromo axle shafts and high quality U joint for the 37's. Also, gusset the C's.
Can I D30 hold up to 37's...yes, but it depends on your driving style. If "easy does it" is something you can live with on the rocks, then many folks make this livable . If you like to use the throttle and spin tires, I wouldn't do it.
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Thank you, that makes a lot of sense. Reason I asked is because I was looking into Nitto Trail Grapplers since I've had them on another vehicle and loved their performance but never realized how heavy they were for a 35. I just started offroading and quickly found my jeep dragging alot, so I picked up a set of rock hard armor (3 piece) to protect the undercarriage but that doesnt solve my clearance issue. So I'm in the process of ordering a RK 3.5" X Factor and was tempted to go with 37's but its starting to look like the extra 2" adds ALOT of extra cost and headache. So...back to my original plan...Opinion?
RK 3.5" X Factor (3" Bump stops)
Fox 2.0 Shocks
35" Trail Grappler (on stock 17 with spidrex spacers)
Fox ATS Stabilizer
Artec Axle Armor
Thanks in advance
Joe
I think this is a real good plan. Good DD attributes and you will not be disappointed offroad.
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Thank you for the quick reply and help. Everytime I get ready to pull the trigger I 2nd guess...but I think 35's will be more than enough so lets do this thing //SLAMIN//.
I think a truss is fairly cheap insurance though, because it is certainly possible to bend an axle tube, just make sure you have someone that knows what they are doing when they weld it on.
I plan to do all my work at Allsouth, emailed them a couple days ago just waiting for them to respond. Again, thanks for the quick response and all the help!
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I run 35's and I can do alot, actually .. more than I should. but over all 35's will get you alot of places 37's can go, just need to change your line a bit .
AllSouth is the place, that will make sure its done right and they treat your right.
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If the tires weigh the same with the same wheels, then the angular momentum and hence torque at the same RPM varies with the square of the radius. 18.5^2/17.5^2 shows 37s would put 11% more strain on your drive components when subjected to a sudden stop. In reality it would be somewhat more since the rubber contact patch will be larger and hence more likely to impart more stopping force.
Most breakage come from staying on the gas while bouncing the front or having the tire bound up. In such situations you can break the shafts on 35s too.
If your current suspension clears 35s I'd go with that plus chromolly shafts.
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I went from heavy 35s on 18s (Toyos) to lighter 37s on 17s (mtr-k). Overall, I ended up being a little lighter with the new set up, but bigger tires. I don't notice a significant difference in the road. I did find a formula that would have solved the question, but I think it's on my old phone- I'll look for it.
I would echo what these guys already said. Mostly depends on your wheeling style. Many of us run/ran 35s and have been able to handle some pretty crazy obstacles. Most of us rather capability over looks. I'd take a jeep on 35s with less worry about breaking before 37s on a weak set up.
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Thank everyone for your help. I emailed All South a few days ago to see if they could match a price I got for the RK from Rebel Offroad but I haven’t got a response yet. I guess Ill call them up today so I can start getting in these parts and then begin the long journey to building my Jeep. Thanks everyone for the responses!
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Thank everyone for your help. I emailed All South a few days ago to see if they could match a price I got for the RK from Rebel Offroad but I haven’t got a response yet. I guess Ill call them up today so I can start getting in these parts and then begin the long journey to building my Jeep. Thanks everyone for the responses!
I would give Danny a call on the phone, that will be quicker and easier for you
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I would not buy the parts from one shop and have another shop that sells the same stuff install them...too much chance of finger pointing, for me. I would prefer to shift the responsibility to the installing shop by making them provide the correct parts. Otherwise, understand that you need to know exactly what you need or else you may end up buying similar parts, again, and delay your overall build time.
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This ^^ I learned this lesson the hard way. You would think companies would send you ALL of the parts the first time, and that those parts would be correct. Placing the onus one a shop that deals with this on a daily basis gives you a piece of mind that any issues will be resolved with little to no headache on your end. Also, I believe All South has a low price gurantee. I know for sure they have a lifetime warranty on all of their work. Just some food for thought.
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Finally did it...pulled the trigger on RK 3.5" X factor w/ 2" Bumpstop, fox ats stabilizer and bilstein 5100's. Now just waiting for them to come in //popcorn//. Just have a few more questions.
1. Looked into the cost to have the Artec Armor welded //:hlp//... is it overkill or is it a pay now so you dont have to pay later?
2. Which 35" tire.... Big difference in weight from what I want Trail Grappler(80lbs) to something like a KM2(67lbs).... where as the KM2 37" is still lighter at 74lbs but then we have the leverage issue. Is it safe to the run the trail grappler when it weighs more than most 37's?
3. Anything else you guys recommend or think is essential to add now?
Again, I want to thank everyone for all the help so far...this is a great community, especially for some one to learn alot that has no experience...me!
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Artec trusses and gussets well worth the money
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My offroad tire experience is that I've never bought anything new from a tire dealer (other than trailer tires). There are always "deals" to be had if you're patient, have cash, and check the F/S pages on the offroad forums. Likewise it's possible to sell your old tires.
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I think you'll be fine with the heavier 35 with what you are doing, but do a decent amount of research. I bought Toyos for my first set and they really struggled in our terrain compared to Goodyear and BFG. They looked great and drove well on the road though.
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Bfg usually never measure close to there true size so they are naturally lighter. I'd choose trail grappler or mtr over a km2.
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MTR KEVLAR
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Tripp, my BFG KM2 35's measure 34.5 inches tall. I had Pro Comp MT 33's that were 32 in. tall.
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If you are looking at artec and also maybe re-gear, do the artec truss/gussets and regear all at once to save some labor cost as it all has to come out. Also, not from some scientific testing or anything but from the interwebs (of truth), I have gathered than an upgraded diff cover also makes the entire axle stiffer and protects the gears as the housing may flex.
And... MTR/K FTW offroad and onroad a better performing design first hand experience. Nitto and Toyo certainly look awesome though.
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Tripp, my BFG KM2 35's measure 34.5 inches tall. I had Pro Comp MT 33's that were 32 in. tall.
The 37" KM2's measure 35.5, they are the worst. The Km2 40's are true to size.
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That is pretty bad.
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Tripp, my BFG KM2 35's measure 34.5 inches tall. I had Pro Comp MT 33's that were 32 in. tall.
The 37" KM2's measure 35.5, they are the worst. The Km2 40's are true to size.
There ya go...a 37 with the leverage of a 35.5.
Km2 is a great tire.
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C'mon guys...show me someone with new km2 on a 17x8 with a center to center tire height. I had always heard this but mine have always measure within .5 or .6 of stated height.
Maybe someone meant 36.5 and not 35.5, I included their spec sheet which was spot on for my measurement.
http://m.bfgoodrichtires.com/tire-selector/tire-download-techspec-pdf.page?
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Finally did it...pulled the trigger on RK 3.5" X factor w/ 2" Bumpstop, fox ats stabilizer and bilstein 5100's. Now just waiting for them to come in //popcorn//. Just have a few more questions.
1. Looked into the cost to have the Artec Armor welded //:hlp//... is it overkill or is it a pay now so you dont have to pay later?
2. Which 35" tire.... Big difference in weight from what I want Trail Grappler(80lbs) to something like a KM2(67lbs).... where as the KM2 37" is still lighter at 74lbs but then we have the leverage issue. Is it safe to the run the trail grappler when it weighs more than most 37's?
3. Anything else you guys recommend or think is essential to add now?
Again, I want to thank everyone for all the help so far...this is a great community, especially for some one to learn alot that has no experience...me!
An 80 lb tire for a 35" tire seems to be absolutely insane to me. That's just stupid heavy! For every pound of rotating weight you can remove, makes the car think you removed 10 pounds. So if the tire is 10 pounds heavier x 4 tires that's like loading your Jeep up with 400 lbs! Not that great for anything I can think of... well maybe an anchor. I would consider a tire that weighs less and if that means going up a size... be that as it may. Change wheeling style until you build axles.
regarding the Truss.... 100%... the JK with the wide axles are prone to bending the axle tubes also be sure to have the C gussets done as that is another weak link on the axle. If you can't afford to do the regear now, consider getting the truss now. You don't want to regear bent axles in a year from now.
AJ's disclaimer;
The above comments are that of my opinion only and may not reflect everyone's opinions. :)
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An 80 lb tire for a 35" tire seems to be absolutely insane to me.
That's why I went with the Duratarack tires. Much lighter and super quiet. So far they are great in DurhamTown. I will update after Hale Mountain.
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An 80 lb tire for a 35" tire seems to be absolutely insane to me.
That's why I went with the Duratarack tires. Much lighter and super quiet. So far they are great in DurhamTown. I will update after Hale Mountain.
I still have the Duratrac's I love them. Not great in heavy mud, but if them made them in a 37" they would be mounted to my rims already. For a 34.5" they wrap the rocks fantastic.
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Thank you everyone for your help. I know I'm really beating a dead horse here but as I'm waiting for my lift to get here I cant help but think once I get 35's Ill just want 37's. A little background this is my DD and only used on trails basically every other weekend but nothing to crazy. My question is what would you recommend now that I'm 95% thinking 37's... Truss, gusset and sleeve and I should be worry free for DD? Again sorry to beat a dead horse but Im finding it hard to justify saving for 60's since I dont beat it.
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Thank you everyone for your help. I know I'm really beating a dead horse here but as I'm waiting for my lift to get here I cant help but think once I get 35's Ill just want 37's. A little background this is my DD and only used on trails basically every other weekend but nothing to crazy. My question is what would you recommend now that I'm 95% thinking 37's... Truss, gusset and sleeve and I should be worry free for DD? Again sorry to beat a dead horse but Im finding it hard to justify saving for 60's since I dont beat it.
I wouldn't even consider 37s for a daily driver, but many others have and do. Seth drove his everywhere everyday on 37 BFG's.
Planning to regear?
What is your daily commute?
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Yes I was planning on regearing and leaving it open... Usually drive about 30miles a day under 45 mph but I do drive to Asheville a lot so I need highway
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Stay with 35's on a Dana 30. Truss it and Gussets. You will have no problems on trails with that set. Add lockers and your golden.
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C'mon guys...show me someone with new km2 on a 17x8 with a center to center tire height. I had always heard this but mine have always measure within .5 or .6 of stated height.
Maybe someone meant 36.5 and not 35.5, I included their spec sheet which was spot on for my measurement.
http://m.bfgoodrichtires.com/tire-selector/tire-download-techspec-pdf.page? (http://m.bfgoodrichtires.com/tire-selector/tire-download-techspec-pdf.page?)
You had 33's and 35's
I have done the measurements on the 37's. Ask @Metro , he has them and were the ones I measured. I'll try and dig up a picture of mine and his side by side, it's a noticeable difference.
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If you are staying on pavement, it's not that big of a deal. It's probably going to be a miserable drive with power. If you are going to wheel, expect to break. Mine is built to handle 37s and I'm still currently looking for another vehicle to daily drive.
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Mine is built to handle 37s and I'm still currently looking for another vehicle to daily drive.
Do you think having the 3.6 will make a huge difference for DD for me vs the 3.8?
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Mine is built to handle 37s and I'm still currently looking for another vehicle to daily drive.
Do you think having the 3.6 will make a huge difference for DD for me vs the 3.8?
It will definitely make a difference, you will likely want to regear not long after.
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I lost power going to 35's with my 3.73 gears. Now I have to hack the puter program to get some more HP. /cry
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Difference between 35's and 37's = 2 (no common core needed)
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Difference between 35's and 37's = 2 (no common core needed)
Haha. Jeep math makes it 1